Grove Park Gallivant (mini-blog 5)

Sometimes It's Best Not To Start!

It ought to be very easy, in a fully "regulated" environment, to work out where and when the buses go in London. Bearing in mind that TfL provide neither maps nor timetables, the task is bound to be difficult, Andy Burnham and the like, please note.

At Grove Park, it is hard to know where to start!

There are three variants of the town centre bus stop map on-line, none of them is dated. This one shows what would appear to be an icon for a bus station.

This replaces the bus symbol with a stop "M" ...

... and the third version has nothing in that little loop!

The new-ish SL4 is shown on TfL's current web site as terminating at Grove Park Bus Station

Meanwhile, on the only map index available is clear that route 136 and 181 serve stop M.

On Ian Armstrong's London Bus Routes web site is a map for the SL4 which shows a termination at what looks to be said bus station.

Closer perusal does indeed confirm the SL4 joins the 136 and the 181, plus a school service 624, WITHIN the bus station.

But it doesn't call it "bus station" because there is no room for the text. In fact this is an amended Mike Harris map.

Robert Munster's bus timetable for the SL4 makes no mention of a bus station despite the evidence on the TfL web site.

Many of the Munster timetables use Grove Park Station as a time point, some without a road name. A glance at any of the TfL maps shows that multiple stops might be defined as serving the station, so those simple words are no guide.

Obviously, Streetview is not the best source as its updating policy is something of a Google secret, but currently is does show a bus at a bus station bus stop ...

... and, from another angle, we can espy the delights of a TfL bus shelter as well.

That is where the single decker was parked in the previous shot. But everyone seems to agree that the SL4, which TfL assures us arrives at the bus station, definitely does not depart from the bus station. 

That would be a silly idea, wouldn't it?

TfL offers St Augustine's Church for where to get on.

Beyond the church is a bus stop pole and flag ...

... with no shelter.

But where, in the glorious community Of Grove Park, is St Augustines? fbb's diligent research reveals that is is a significant distance from the non-bus station, a good bit further from the railway station and even further from what might be defined as the town centre road junction!

It is 350 metres from the railway station which is pretty close to 400 yards, but not quite a quarter of a mile.

On the Tfl dotty street map (above) the bus station, a k a stop M, is the dot just above the GREEN "Anytime Fitness" pin.

For the record, and despite the possibly erroneous map, the terminating 136 and 181 no longer mention the bus station, even courtesy of TfL's web site!

It is Grove Park Station for arrival and departure.

But which stops? Now there's a question.

Given that there is some evidence that, like in nearby Lewisham ...

... the bus station is now a station for buses but not for passengers, fbb decided to try and plot routes to stops for the theoretical benefit of  passengers arriving by train and seeking an onward journey by bus.

It involved about six hours' work!

And you are right, fbb is just a sad old man. But here it is!

fbb suspects that the terminating 136 and 181 deposit their arrivals at stop C, then run "light" to the non-bus station to turn; returning for departure stop D as shown on the fbb presentation.

The SL4 unloads at stop A (or nearby) before enjoying the luxury of a restful few passenger-less minutes, again in the non-bus station before departung from stop N at St Augustpine's Church.

fbb is considering sending a copy of his map to Andy Burnham so that he can  use it as a guide to better buses in Manchester and an example of how the fully regulated network works. But he would also need a copy of fbb's blogs to understand how easy it is to understand the buses at Grove Park.

But, as a real treat, fbb will bring you a full description of the excitement that is Grove Park Bus Station, delivered by the ever accurate (NOT) Fandom service.

It offers an up-to-date list of all routes serving the bus station ...

... plus  full list of all the bus stations in London with the great Grove Park highlighted.

Enjoy!

  All Hallows Day Variety Blog : Sat 31st Oct 

Grove Park Gallivant (mini-blog 4)

We Have A Spider!

A spider is a cunning creature that spins a sticky web to trap the unwary!

We Have A Spider Map!

A spider map is a cunning feature that spins a sticky web to trap the unwary!

The above map is part of a display provided for passengers at Grove Park station. Whether the display is actually visible anywhere for real at the station is unknown.

A different map is available from the TfL web site ...

Can we glean which one is correct?

The "station" version, presumably curated by South Eastern Railway, shows this ...

... a 136 continuing beyond Lewisham to Elephant and Castle.

The "TfL on line" version ...

... doesn't. But it does.

So it might be right on both; just the design of the map is different.

Why?

Ian Armstrong's London Bus Routes web site does confirm no change for the 135.

The on-line map also mentions an SL4, absent from the "station" version.

This is the Superloop from Canary Wharf via the Silvertown tunnel ...

... and there is no guidance as to where it might deposit or uplift passengers at Grove Park. Streetview shows the buses snoozing peacefully in the litttle bus station (or is it just a bus park?) marked as Stop M on the "station" map ...

...and confirmed by a Streetview view of a couple of SL4 rear ends.

Because the "on line" map has no index, and because the "station" map predates the SL4, new customers for the Khan special have to guess! Ian Armstrong might show stop M.

The guess has to be a good one as stop M is not marked on the map anyway!

Are you thoroughly confused? 

So was fbb; so is fbb whenever he tries to unravel the truth from any Transport for London publicity. You would suspect that, as is usual with London stuff, Spider maps and only really useful if you already know the answer to your query.

fbb's guess is that the "station" Spider is defunct and should not be relied upon at all.

Confused.com

But, for the time being, as this is a Grove Park station blog, we will concentrate on the information that the station supplies.

The encouraging feature at the station is that the Spider does have that full index of places served and stops served at and near Grove Park. The (more recent?) on line version has no index whatsoever. That would make it useless as a work of reference to help the public.

Station Map : The Detail

fbb has never before seen  H&R2  on a TfL index. The rubric explains ...

Marked on the map?

It must be Panto time.

"Oh No they're not!" 

The sections of road are labelled in full text but NOT with the  H&R2  and   H&R1  tags. But, perversely, the other route with  Hail and Ride section ...

... (284, the purple one) doesn't get a pretty   H&R3  logo in the index.

Bearing in mind that most people will be pre-warned by a friend or neighbour and will be looking for a specific bus stop for their chosen route, surely the "centre" enlargement should show route numbers at each stop, particularly for stops at or near the station.

If time and sanity permits, fbb will curate a better "centre" map for Grove Park ... UNLESS ...

Readers may remember that this week's blogs were pre-published to avoid problems with a change in telephone technology which also involved a change in internet technology. So fair, the phones are not yet quite right; but the internet seems stable.

So far?

It is also time for the fbb's monthly fellowship meetings on Sunday 2nd and Monday 3rd November, so the minutiae of blog research and compilation will have to take second place in the queue for the old bloke's ageing brain cells; with Biblical matters coming first.

It is all about revealing how Fire Works in the Bible. Fire Works? Fireworks? Gettit? 5th November? GROAN!

It is all almost as mysterious as a TfL Spider Map.

=======================

Whatever the complex and confusing cartographic content tomorrow, fbb will excite his readers a bit more with a further episode of his toy very plastic tank wagon adaptation.

fbb just knew you would be excited!

 Next Grove Park Map blog : Friday 31st Oct 

Grove Park Gallivant (mini-blog 3)

How Do You Solve A Problem Like ...

... Maria Bronley South.

The line was built by the 'Bromley Direct Railway Company', in co-operation with the South Eastern Railway (SER), to compete with the London, Chatham and Dover Railway, which owned the other Bromley station, Bromley South. It opened on 1 January 1878 and was worked by the SER from the outset. The two companies merged later in the same year.

The line was electrified at 750 V DC (third rail) with the other SECR urban routes from 1926

Since the 1990s, the line which has two stations of its own has been served almost exclusively by shuttle services to and from Grove Park , where passengers can change trains for onward journeys towards Central London, as well as towards Kent.

As might be expected, with a station originally built to compete with another and separate company, the station was much more comprehensive than it is today. Below you can contrast and compare!

Now just the two platforms remain.

There have been several proposals to improve the usefulness of the branch, all coming to terms with the fact that improved "main line" frequencies would make through trains from Bromley North untenable today.

One of the many schemes for the Bakerloo Line was to extend, not to Hayes, but to Bromley North.

The Bakerloo is struggling to get to Lewisham, let alone further! 

Extending the DLR to Bromley North by coming up for air after Grove Park might work, but there would still be a need to change for a fast run to the City.

Surely yet another branch off the East London line is also impracticable and, again, would need a change for central London.

More useful, maybe, is to keep the change at Grove Park but increase the frequency ...

... by extending the tram from Beckenham Junction ... 

... via Bromley North. A higher frequency would, maybe, compensate for the need to change. Beckenham and Bromley are not far apart, but there is no obviously easy route. There are quieter residential roads, but would the quieter residents appreciate having trams clattering past.

And there is plenty of railway to cross!

It looks as if the Bromley North shuttle will be shuttling for a good few years to come; until Mr Khan or his successors can find a lot more money for very expensive tunnels!

It seems a lot of railway at the Bromley terminus for a train every 30 min taking about 15 for the round trip!

But the Carto map does explain an oddity back at Grove Park.

Platforms 4 and 5 are usually served by Grove Park stoppers. Faster trains on longer distance route whizz swiftly through 2 and 3 without stopping.

Whilst there might appear to be three island platforms, thus providing six platform faces, the opposite face from "1" is unused. fbb wondered why there was a fence half way across the platform corralling passengers on to Platform 1 only, with no access to its second half.

It is a platform that isn't! Here the fence is viewed from Platform 2 ...

... and a longer shot showing the the platform edge has been completely removed from the non platform.

To Conclude ...

It is always good to take an educated look at the service pattern when we explore a station. Above is South Eastern's standard daytime service, unencumbered with peak hour oddities and extras. In each hourly cycle, there are two trains between Charing Cross and Sevenoaks, two between Cannon Street and Orpington and two shuttles to Bomley North.

Here are the relevant column heading notes ...

... and we all know what a "City Beam" train is, don't we?

Neither did fbb!

It is a rather ordinary Class 707 with a very silly name. fbb is quite sure (NOT) that commuters from London to Grove Park will willingly wait before returning to the arms (and the dinners) of their loved ones so they can travel "City Beam"!(?).

Here is a 707 pictured at Grove Park.

But commuters can make a more important decision. South Eastern does tell you which trains are not equipped with toilets. That might be a great relief for fbb when he (frequently) feels the need for self relief?

Next, we find a bus to complete our journey.

Contrast And Compare

Dating from 1976, the Hornby (Triang Hornby) original version of its TTA tank wagon was only a small step up from the crude 'toy'.

The wheelsets were plastic with square section axles ans push-on metal rims.

The brake shoes were not at all in line with the wheels ...

... and there was no buffer Beam detail but tlhe buffers w8uere a little more shapely than those bodged by fbb

The "proper model was still crude and only a small step up from the bright yellow toy as fettled by fbb.

Both should have brake pipes.

 Next Grove Park Gallivant blog : Thurs 0th Oct