472 Becomes SL11 - One

The Same But Different?

We know that the recent new route SL11 was a direct replacement for its predecessor, service 472. although no map of the 472 remains on the Transport for London (TfL) web site other sources confirm this direct match with one small change at Woolwich.

Historically the eastbound 472 followed a "back street" wiggle, possibly to get the service a little closer to Woolwich Arsenal station in one direction at least.

Note, in passing, that, if you wished to continue Superlooping by crossing the Thames by foot tunnel or free ferry, the ideal stops would be near the Leisure Centre on the High Street. But, in the interests of completing the outer circle round London loop (NOT), the SL11 does not stop there.

You need a hefty heave from Beresford Street.

But that begs a wider question? Who actually benefits from the limited stop and speeded up replacement for the 472.

TfL's web site shows 15 stops end to end for the newcomer.

Now, fbb thinks that he read somewhere that there were 37 stops on the 472. Calling at one in three stops is about average for a Superloop service that enhances an existing all-stops bus route.

That is beneficial if you are making a long journey on e.g. the SL11. BUT, apart from slightly insane bus enthusiasts, how many folk are likely to ride all the way from Abbey Wood to North Greenwich?

By far the huge majority of passengers are taking shorter journeys; shopping, socialising locally or connecting with train journeys further afield.

Even with the arrival of the swish newcomer, all parts of its route have reasonably frequent all-stops services running prallel. So ...

... if you were going from Abbey Wood station to a stop on the loop unserved by SL11, you would always have the 229.

The 229 runs every 12 minutes Monday to Saturday ...

... and every 15 evenings and Sundays.

Thus, you may have less choice, but local journeys are always still possible. If you are travelling a bit farther, there may be a time disadvantage if you have to change. 

So hard cheese to you!

So what are the journey time differences between the former 472 and the present SL11?

Here is a chunk of a recent 472 timetable ...

... and a bit of an SL11 table.

Comparing the two, we see that a journey on the old all'stops 472 between Abbey Wood and Thamesmead Centre takes 12 minutes.

A similar journey on the limited stop express SL11 ... takes 12 minutes.

But, if we were to go from Thamesmead centre to Woolwich on the 472, it would have taken 18 minutes.

But on the super Superloop we would speed along at only 10 minutes, a saving of a massive 8 minutes.

Frankly, fbb does not believe those figures.

How about from Charlton Station to North Greenwich?  On the 472 we ride for a modest 12 minutes.

But now we can take the speeded up Superloop schedule and nake the journey in ...

... a modest 12 minutes.

Hmmm?

Two possibilities exist. Either TfL is deliberately loading the time savings on the busy section of the route leaving the extremities to be used for 'recovery', or, their calculations are just plain wrong.

Who can ever understand the dark deeds of necromancy if TfL's  skilled timetable planners?

But there are a few more challenges to face the users of the SL11, some partly inherited from the 472.

So tomorrow we take a ride on the SL11 and seek to understand its good bits and its limitations. Showing no fear, the old man will also explain the terminus arrangements at Abbey Wood station.

Ha! It looks simple enough!

Simple? Remember, this IS London.

PLEASE NOTE

This blog has been split into two more manageable parts to protect the sanity of its readers and, more importantly, to mitigate the insanity of its author. Much of Part Two is about maps!

  Next SL11 exploratory blog : Sat 7th Feb 

A Simple View of the 472

Simple? This is London!

Originally the route started from the Thamesmead Town Centre bus terminus ...

... where buses lurk in the bushes and the lavish facilities consist of a bus shelter, pole and flag - lavish luxury indeed!

But shops and other facilities of Thamesmead town centre are a good trot away and well hidden. Needless to say there are plenty of car parks closer to the supermarkets!

Map : Thamesmead Loop

The 472 then sets off on its mega loop of Thamesmead typified by standard urban stops of no great interest except to those who want to catch a bus!

After the big loop, the 472 calls at some delightful stops just off the busy main road ...

... but, well hidden behind those trees is less idyllic but well deserved by some, namely ...

... The Belmarsh Prison compound

Map : Thamesmead to Plumsread

Next comes Plumstead with railway station and, in the middle of a giant gyratory, a Stagecoach bus depot.

Map : Woolwich

We now Approach Woolwich where interchange is possible, but not obvious, with the Elizabeth Line line, the SouthEastern suburban line and the Docklands Light Railway.

Here is the westbound stop ...

... and opposite is a footway to more of the town centre.

fbb could not spot any directional signs on-line, but they may be there and he could blame his eyesight if they are. BUT, round the back and well hidden, is the smart Liz Line (the purple one) station entrance.

Obvious, innit?

But where might the Docklands and SouthEastern be?

Aha! 

Get off your 472 and walk forward towards London town, turn left and walk on southbound more than a few precious yards and ...

... tada ...

... there be the dinky diddy tower of the other Woolwich station.

Why not bring all three together, especially as the purple on is in tunnel at Woolwich?

Dunno, it seems daft to fbb.

Map : Charlton to North Greenwich

Next call on the 472 is Charlton Station ...

... again, not signposted from the stops that bear its name. But just left round the corner, and more 'just' than Woolwich ...

... is a sweet little two platform station.

Since leaving Thamesmead, we have followed the obvious main road. but now we must turn north onto the Greenwich Peninsula and much new development. But firstly we have to enjoy a slight wiggle via a selection of favorite retail therapy stores.

That's Aldi behind the buses. Deep joy!

We skirt a rather fine park, perhaps needing some more mature planting, but green in a sea of built-up!

But, never fear intrepid 472 traveller, the Millennium Dome soon comes into view, still standing ...

... despite not being much more than a rather large circus tent! It is a tent with a gurt big hole in it, where picturesquely protrudes the pipe to un-pong the Blackwall Tunnel.

But next door is the massive bus station and interchange with the Jubilee Line ...

... which really only makes sense from above!

It is amazing twice over. It is, indeed, shaped like a wedge of Dutch Cheese but, even more amazing, it is closer to the Dome/O2 than the car parks!

So we have sampled the 472 from Thamesmead "Town Centre" bus stop all the way to North Greenwich.

But, in 2022. the 472 was extended from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood station. It was also removed from that eastbound wiggle at Woolwich.

We will address the Abbey Wood excitement tomorrow.

 Next 472 versus SL11 blog : Friday 6th Feb 

Cock-a-Hoop for Superloop?

Completion January 25th (?)

The origin of "cock-a-hoop" is obscure and much debated. The best of a bad lot of explanations sees the 'cock' as a tap in a beer barrel, often called a 'spigot'. (Think 'stop cock'?). Turning on the barrel tap would lead to much happiness, whooping in delight.

Fascinating but irrelevant!

Sunday January 25th 2026 marked the arrival of the missing link in London Buses' original 'outer circle' Superloop bus route.

Although the diagram shows the link from Thamesmead to North Woolwich as a quick hop across the river, this was far from the truth. Thamesmead is about three miles east of (south) Woolwich.

There is a free ferry or a free foot tunnel beotwieen the two Woolwichs!

Here is the link diagrammatically.

The route showing in blue (above) was ordinary non-super route 472 from Abbey Wood station (Elizabeth Line line and SouthEastern proper railway) ...

... via Woolwich to North Greenwich.

Here's is the route shown geographically.

In this case the Superloop routes are blue and purple with the 472 in an unappealing khaki.

The 472 has now been completely replaced by the SL11.

And it is a direct replacement; the 472 has vanished completely. This means that a busy all-stops service has been replaced by a limited stop 'express' service.

fbb is keen to explore the implications.

For most other outer circle Suoerloop routes, the new limited stop service sits along side an existing route or routes leaving an all-stops normality with a slightly reduced service.

But before he explores, a bit of history.

Thamesmead was developed as a vast 'concrete jungle' estate from the 1970s.

It lies between the A2016 and a rather murky River Thames.

To its east sits the delightfull Cross Ness sewage works ...

... additionally to the west we have the Belmarsh prison complex!

Again, the housing north of the big red road is usually referred to as Thamesmead West.

Historically, Thamesmead was renowned for poor public transport links and a parlous lack of community facilities.

A proposal to run the River Line (later Fleet Line, eventually Jubilee Line) of the Underground to Thamesmead never materialised.

This was revived and revised several times ...

.. but in the end, and 50 years late a Docklands Light Railway route is being pursued ...

... slowly!

The history of bus services is not particularly endearing, but fbb will touch briefly on the antecedents of the 472.

The ultimate source of such information is the superb London Bus Routes web site by Ian Armstrong. It is to Ian that you must go for a far more detailed history of Thamesmead buses than fbb's weary brain cells can absorb!

First up was route 272 ...

... which arrived to the growing development via Abbey Wood station in 1974.

It was not frequent ...

... especially on Sundays! But it did improve ...

... serving more of the development. 

In the days before London Buses insisted on red with red additions, Thamesmead folk had a succession of multi coloured liveries to enjoy.

Bexleybus handed over to Boroline (Maidstone Corporation Transport) ...

... which, in turn, begat Kentish Bus.

Then it was back to London Buses roundabout the Orpington area;

... very pretty but hardly conducive to an image of stability.

In 1994 Kentish Bus added to its Thamesmead Portfolio an X73 ...

... which lasted just 5 years.

F102 TML passed to Arriva, appearing first in a rather splendid Kentish Bus green and gold ...

... and later in a different green for LondonLinks.

Liveries we're much nicer than blue, back then!

So it was that in January 1999, a rerouted and extended 272 was replaced by a 472 and a 244.

We turn our attention to the 472 in tomorrow's blog,

  Next SL11 blog : Thursday 5th Feb