tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post234506487849473379..comments2024-03-29T08:14:43.839+00:00Comments on Public Transport Experience: Porlock's Persistent Problems (2)fatbusblokehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06833340546527596517noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-8130750065416779362018-03-31T09:11:05.092+01:002018-03-31T09:11:05.092+01:00Stagecoach could accept the First tickets, but why...Stagecoach could accept the First tickets, but why would they, unless First accepted the Stagecoach tickets as a quid pro quo? This would have to be on a mutual basis, i.e. no money changing hands between the operators. So, unless the two companies were running roughly equal services (and this would have to include roughly equal return ticket sale opportunities), why would they bother?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-13604045623561459332018-03-30T10:00:00.211+01:002018-03-30T10:00:00.211+01:00To Greenline 727. Supermarkets have been known to ...To Greenline 727. Supermarkets have been known to accept each other’s discount vouchers as a sort of spoiler. They get the custom at a price of a small discount and more importantly the issuing supermarket doesn’t get the trade.<br />But that wasn’t my point. What (exactly) is to stop Stagecoach (for example) accepting First tickets if it chose to do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-34266997658239570332018-03-30T09:54:37.995+01:002018-03-30T09:54:37.995+01:00Still no chapter and verse on the legal position f...Still no chapter and verse on the legal position from anyone. I think it’s up to those who say an action is illegal to show exactly why. The onus is on the prosecution to prove guilt, not just ask the defence to google it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-56431129239946169962018-03-28T21:47:52.032+01:002018-03-28T21:47:52.032+01:00Indeed you did give sufficient detail, and this in...Indeed you did give sufficient detail, and this information is well known across the industry.<br /><br />It has also occurred in the West Country where both BaNES and North Somerset have acted as brokers to enable coordinated timetables and fare interavailabilty to be established.<br /><br />Think someone was being deliberately obtuse in demanding the actual legal references!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-74445143858459638702018-03-28T12:04:39.452+01:002018-03-28T12:04:39.452+01:00The point that I was trying to make, but failed so...The point that I was trying to make, but failed so to do (and I do see how that happened), was that companies may not discuss any form of service rationalisation without a third party in the room. <br /><br />The network changes in Oxford several years ago (for example) involved Stagecoach and Oxford Bus co-ordinating timetables on certain corridors in the interests of reducing overall numbers of buses, and Oxford City Council oversaw that process. It was necessary for both operators to see each others' timetables to ensure that a bus every 5 minutes was just that, and not a bus every 2-8 minutes. THAT was against competition legislation, as in theory it removed the choice of two buses arriving on the same minute, which gives full choice to the passenger!<br /><br />Many years ago (late 1990's?) Arriva and First had conversations about rationalising their route networks in Leeds, which involved both operators agreeing to withdraw from competing services in the interests of reducing costs. THAT was illegal, and the Competition Commission jumped hard on both operators.<br /><br />Concerning the allowing of passengers travelling with a third-party ticket . . . . you have a discount voucher for Asda's Baked Beans, and you go to Sainsbury's and try to use the voucher on Sainsbury's own brand Baked Beans - - - good luck with that!! It's exactly the same principle here, you know . . . <br /><br />And finally . . . . I didn't quote any detail, as this isn't the place to do so. I did give enough detail for interested persons to dig it up for themselves!greenline727https://www.blogger.com/profile/03033268278026535109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-86344973090590060152018-03-28T12:00:37.101+01:002018-03-28T12:00:37.101+01:00Think if you look at the 1988 Competition Act, cha...Think if you look at the 1988 Competition Act, chapter 1 has sufficient detail in respect of collusion between businesses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-18322125738796007602018-03-28T09:30:26.894+01:002018-03-28T09:30:26.894+01:00Bus companies managed to find a way round the Driv...Bus companies managed to find a way round the Drivers Hours regs for 50k+ services easily enough when it suited their commercial interests to do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-80177841908640024322018-03-28T09:26:45.388+01:002018-03-28T09:26:45.388+01:00You don't quote any detail from either Act, bu...You don't quote any detail from either Act, but from what you say it appears to me that there is nothing to prevent anyone publishing a timetable that shows all buses operating on a given service as long as there is no hidden agreement not to compete and no reason for bus companies to allow passengers to travel on their buses using third-party ticketts if they really wanted to. The real reason it doesn't happen is that bus companies consider their narrow short-term interests over and above the needs of passengers and the supposed legislation is a convenient hiding place. Of course, if you can quote an actual piece of legislation that disproves this, I'll accept it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-43643180920134335532018-03-28T07:26:37.459+01:002018-03-28T07:26:37.459+01:00Route 28 also serves several other villages along ...Route 28 also serves several other villages along the route, including Watchet, Williton and Bishop's Lydeard. Taken in total, there's a reasonable passenger base along the route, and there's also the County College in Taunton as well as a good shopping centre.<br />These are all factors that encourages a good level of service, and with a bus every 30 minutes this encourages good numbers of passengers.<br /><br />Contrast with the previous [398?] service from Minehead to Tiverton, which seems not to run now. When I travelled on it some 15 years ago, there were very few passengers, although the scenery was fabulous! In the vernacular, the service was "thin" {no chimneys, so no bums on seats}.<br /><br />The service from Minehead to Porlock suffers in much the same way - few chimneys so few bums! A bus at school times and a couple of trips for shopping is all that's needed now. Maybe some extra trips in the high summer as well?<br /><br />Horses for courses, y'know!!greenline727https://www.blogger.com/profile/03033268278026535109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-12561872446597922332018-03-27T13:32:19.461+01:002018-03-27T13:32:19.461+01:00In the 1970's our rural route was run twice a ...In the 1970's our rural route was run twice a day by the local agricultural hauliers. The battered coach was much older than any of their lorries. You simply can't do that today and make money. That route still runs to similar times, but by the main bus company, who have seen the villages grow and a new prison built.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-70311985384287814402018-03-27T13:21:26.968+01:002018-03-27T13:21:26.968+01:00In contrast to Minehead's disappearing rural s...In contrast to Minehead's disappearing rural services is the trunk service to Taunton.<br /><br />The railway closed in 1971. In 1977 the bus was 2 hourly and took 1.5 hours. Today the bus still takes 1.5 hours, but runs every 30 minutes.<br /><br />It must say something about Minehead's economy and isolation, that so many locals spend 3 hours in a day on the bus. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-948545332604880792018-03-27T13:03:43.916+01:002018-03-27T13:03:43.916+01:00Regrettably many rural people today do not see bus...Regrettably many rural people today do not see buses as civilsed. Walking to the main road, waiting in all weathers without shelter for a service a couple of times a day to one destination, is not civilised. Tesco and Amazon etc deliver and friends are in other villages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-2071837567565898992018-03-27T13:03:36.482+01:002018-03-27T13:03:36.482+01:00Google "Competition Acts Buses" and ther...Google "Competition Acts Buses" and there's lots of entries!!<br /><br />In summary, the relevant legislation is now the Competition Act 1998, but there was a predecessor Act in the 1980's which was encompassed in the Transport Act 1985 (as updated in the Transport Act 2000) which is the legislation that the industry works to.<br /><br />Basically, bus companies are forbidden from talking to each other about co-ordinated timetables and inter-availability of tickets UNLESS a third-party (usually a Local Authority) is also in the room to ensure that one operator doesn't score points over another operator.<br />The over-arching need is that the passenger MUST still have choice where choice is available; so if AnyTown Bus Company charges £10 for a weekly ticket valid only on their services and RipOff Bus and Coach Company charges £9 for a weekly ticket valid only on their services, the passenger still has a choice. It is entirely possible for a local Council to introduce a weekly ticket available on ALL routes of both companies as long as that Council "owns" the ticket and prices the ticket ABOVE any similar ticket.<br />There is no need to apportion revenue between operators if both operators agree to retain the revenue from their sales (which is normally what happens with Rover tickets and the like).<br />As far as timetable co-ordination is concerned, the same rules apply, so companies can run 1 minute apart all day long and the Competition Act(s) are satisfied.<br /><br />Try explaining all that to passengers!greenline727https://www.blogger.com/profile/03033268278026535109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-26158541320339809382018-03-27T11:19:50.575+01:002018-03-27T11:19:50.575+01:00What I haven't seen are the loading statistics...What I haven't seen are the loading statistics for this service. First said use it or loose it; the later won. The Minehead to Bridgwater service is now just the college runs. The day time journeys could be empty or when I rode it we had 2 passengers. Now in fact there is a free shopping service provided by EDF using Hinckley point C construction workers buses during work hours. In general many rural routes may be nice, but few use them - they all have cars and use them as more convenient inspite of free passes.<br /><br />In France last summer the local route ran on demand for all journeys other than the school runs. If requested they would send a taxi painted in bus livery; it was never a bus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-28804070909204012812018-03-27T10:30:05.030+01:002018-03-27T10:30:05.030+01:00No discussion of rural buses, or any other aspect ...No discussion of rural buses, or any other aspect of local authority spending, can ignore the fact that since 2010 local government has lost nearly half of its funding from central government -and, contrary to popular myth, council tax provides only a small part of local government's income. Austerity has tipped rural buses close to, and in some counties, over the edge (buses to Kirkby Stephen or Alston anyone?). Until we have a governmnet that is prepared to tax at a level that will fund the basics of civilised life situations like this (or what readers might have seen on BBC2's 'Hos[pital' last night) will continue. Yes, I know it's a political point, but it needs saying.Dennis Dratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-78436614666768212042018-03-27T09:59:47.846+01:002018-03-27T09:59:47.846+01:00What FBB doesn’t realise is that however pretty Ex...What FBB doesn’t realise is that however pretty Exmoor looks, this is a seriously deprived and financially challenged area. West Somerset is the smallest district council in England with 1/3 over 60 and rising and the working population decreasing. Hill farming and tourism do not provide much income and it’s a long way from anywhere. The district council ran out of money nearly 5 years ago and Westminster agreed there was no hope of income exceeding statuary expenditure. Most of the management were made redundant and the adjacent Taunton Deane Council took over management responsibility. Last week both councils agreed to be wound up and replaced by a single Somerset West and Taunton council which benefits from economies of scale. Subject to Parliament approval the new council starts on 1st April 2019. For example public toilets were deemed non essential; they have been taken over by parish councils or volunteers or closed. Bus services are treated the same, they are just not that high up the priority scale.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-51046958793067455282018-03-27T09:54:48.004+01:002018-03-27T09:54:48.004+01:00Would Anonymous at 0903 like to point us in the di...Would Anonymous at 0903 like to point us in the direction of the actual “competition rule” that prevents interavaile ticketing and jointly-presented timetables?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-62838221121770216402018-03-27T09:03:49.398+01:002018-03-27T09:03:49.398+01:00FBB has heard of the competition rules has he? The...FBB has heard of the competition rules has he? They might make a nonsense of the aim of a co-ordinated bus network, but rules are rules.<br /><br />We know that FBB doesn't/won't recognise the severe financial constraints that local government finds itself in, but Somerset are really on the edge now, in terms of staff, as well as budget.<br /><br />First is a business, why shouldn't it withdraw routes if it wants too - whatever the profit level? And there may be other reasons to withdraw; availability of staff, distance from engineering base etc. First are on record as saying "we are good at moving lots of people" which by extension means "we aren't good at moving small numbers in rural areas". And as one of their most respected MDs has said "given my staffing difficulties why should I run miles away from home for low returns when I can use those same resources in the big city where there is good growth, and more in prospect?"<br /><br />There are areas of the industry where there is growth, but there are also areas, primarily deeply rural, where alternative solutions are needed. But, as we all know, FBB is anti-change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-9471758992293554942018-03-27T08:31:42.823+01:002018-03-27T08:31:42.823+01:00Traveline southeast and Traveline southwest give t...Traveline southeast and Traveline southwest give the 10+11 as a single combined timetable, which ever entry you click on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-48019268345701259712018-03-27T08:23:34.788+01:002018-03-27T08:23:34.788+01:00Perhaps a slip of the fingers, Webberbus finally s...Perhaps a slip of the fingers, Webberbus finally sank in 2016 rather than 2014. I have a copy of their timetable for the 10 and 101 dated 18th April. The first two journeys from Porlock each morning advertised to continue to Taunton as their 17. The interlinking of routes was a common feature of the Webberbus network.Daddysgadgetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12892897553855129226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7432323264902617108.post-75100125209082100272018-03-27T07:31:15.976+01:002018-03-27T07:31:15.976+01:00There a difference between claiming the the U.K. b...There a difference between claiming the the U.K. bus industry is ‘ailing’ and the reality that the provision of rural non commercial bus routes is ‘ailing’. <br />Why do you conclude from this ‘article’ that First require unrealistically high revenue from non commercial routes provided under contract - do you have any figures to quote?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com